Sorry... I had to vent 🔗 link

On 3/23/10, Jerald Sheets <user-96a6f34c5806@xymon.invalid> wrote:

Does anyone at all RTFM any more?

We have wikis, docs, a several-year mailing list archive, three wonderful
software and addon repositories.

Still, we have questions that are in the man pages on the freaking Xymon
menu and even in their own separate page on the Xymon help menu in the
installation itself.

This group exists to help when you've reached a level of proficiency, and
thing that aren't clearly spelled out in the docs are not working as
expected, or there are little "gotchas" that you might need help with that
we've all been through.

True, I'm the first person to grump at someone when they don't receive a
newcomer in a friendly manner, but coming on here and asking questions that
are clearly laid out in the docs is just plain lazy.

I wouldn't even let my teenagers get away with that.


Guys, if you have questions there is no one more ready than I to help you
trudge through a problem.  But when you don't so much as get into the docs
and ferret out the basic functionality of the software, you really make it
hard to even want to help you.

On your Xymon install:  just mouse over the "Help" menu, and all your basic
answers will be there.  If you get into a hairy spot, bring it here and we
can ll puzzle over it together.


(sorry... I had three separate people ask precisely the kind of question
that showed they didn't want to do the basic footwork necessary to make
their app work, and expected suppor to just do it all for them.  They
wouldn't even read the manual it took me weeks to put together and post on
the company intranet.)

I actually heard the words today "I don't want to read that book" (22 pages,
mind you) "I just want you to make it work."

It's a statistical package...  you actually have to know basic statistics.
They don't.

UGH!

Sorry again.  A real RTFM moment for me.


--j

-- 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerald Sheets [mailto:user-96a6f34c5806@xymon.invalid] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 8:17 PM
To: user-ae9b8668bcde@xymon.invalid
Subject: [hobbit] Sorry... I had to vent

Does anyone at all RTFM any more?

We have wikis, docs, a several-year mailing list archive, three
wonderful software and addon repositories.

Still, we have questions that are in the man pages on the freaking Xymon
menu and even in their own separate page on the Xymon help menu in the
installation itself.

This group exists to help when you've reached a level of proficiency,
and thing that aren't clearly spelled out in the docs are not working as
expected, or there are little "gotchas" that you might need help with
that we've all been through.

True, I'm the first person to grump at someone when they don't receive a
newcomer in a friendly manner, but coming on here and asking questions
that are clearly laid out in the docs is just plain lazy.

I wouldn't even let my teenagers get away with that.


Guys, if you have questions there is no one more ready than I to help
you trudge through a problem.  But when you don't so much as get into
the docs and ferret out the basic functionality of the software, you
really make it hard to even want to help you.

On your Xymon install:  just mouse over the "Help" menu, and all your
basic answers will be there.  If you get into a hairy spot, bring it
here and we can ll puzzle over it together.


(sorry... I had three separate people ask precisely the kind of question
that showed they didn't want to do the basic footwork necessary to make
their app work, and expected suppor to just do it all for them.  They
wouldn't even read the manual it took me weeks to put together and post
on the company intranet.)

I actually heard the words today "I don't want to read that book" (22
pages, mind you) "I just want you to make it work."

It's a statistical package...  you actually have to know basic
statistics.  They don't.

UGH!

Sorry again.  A real RTFM moment for me.


--j

On 3/23/10, Smith, Jim <user-dc30f243a817@xymon.invalid> wrote:

Jerald,

I don't make many comments on this board anymore, but I want to chime-in
on this.

I agree with what you say about people needing to read the
documentation.  However, I don't agree with your tone.  Even the acronym
"RTFM" is an insult, in my opinion.

We were all "newbies" at some point and probably asked some dumb
questions ourselves.

Jim Smith
SVHS
Little Rock


-----Original Message-----
From: Jerald Sheets [mailto:user-96a6f34c5806@xymon.invalid]
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 8:17 PM
To: user-ae9b8668bcde@xymon.invalid
Subject: [hobbit] Sorry... I had to vent

Does anyone at all RTFM any more?

We have wikis, docs, a several-year mailing list archive, three
wonderful software and addon repositories.

Still, we have questions that are in the man pages on the freaking Xymon
menu and even in their own separate page on the Xymon help menu in the
installation itself.

This group exists to help when you've reached a level of proficiency,
and thing that aren't clearly spelled out in the docs are not working as
expected, or there are little "gotchas" that you might need help with
that we've all been through.

True, I'm the first person to grump at someone when they don't receive a
newcomer in a friendly manner, but coming on here and asking questions
that are clearly laid out in the docs is just plain lazy.

I wouldn't even let my teenagers get away with that.


Guys, if you have questions there is no one more ready than I to help
you trudge through a problem.  But when you don't so much as get into
the docs and ferret out the basic functionality of the software, you
really make it hard to even want to help you.

On your Xymon install:  just mouse over the "Help" menu, and all your
basic answers will be there.  If you get into a hairy spot, bring it
here and we can ll puzzle over it together.


(sorry... I had three separate people ask precisely the kind of question
that showed they didn't want to do the basic footwork necessary to make
their app work, and expected suppor to just do it all for them.  They
wouldn't even read the manual it took me weeks to put together and post
on the company intranet.)

I actually heard the words today "I don't want to read that book" (22
pages, mind you) "I just want you to make it work."

It's a statistical package...  you actually have to know basic
statistics.  They don't.

UGH!

Sorry again.  A real RTFM moment for me.


--j


The information contained in this message is privileged
and confidential information intended for the review and
use of the individual and entity named above. If the
reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you
are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication or the
information contained herein is strictly prohibited. If
you have received this communication in error, please
immediately notify us.

-- 
Josh Luthman
Office: XXX-XXX-XXXX
Direct: XXX-XXX-XXXX
XXXX Wayne St
Suite XXXX
Troy, OH XXXXX

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
continue that counts.”
--- Winston Churchill

On Tue, March 23, 2010 21:16, Jerald Sheets wrote:

Does anyone at all RTFM any more?

We have wikis, docs, a several-year mailing list archive, three wonderful
software and addon repositories.

Still, we have questions that are in the man pages on the freaking Xymon
menu and even in their own separate page on the Xymon help menu in the
installation itself.

This group exists to help when you've reached a level of proficiency, and
thing that aren't clearly spelled out in the docs are not working as
expected, or there are little "gotchas" that you might need help with that
we've all been through.

True, I'm the first person to grump at someone when they don't receive a
newcomer in a friendly manner, but coming on here and asking questions
that are clearly laid out in the docs is just plain lazy.

On 3/23/10, Xymon User in Richmond <user-24d6f8323faa@xymon.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, March 23, 2010 21:16, Jerald Sheets wrote:

Does anyone at all RTFM any more?

We have wikis, docs, a several-year mailing list archive, three wonderful
software and addon repositories.

Still, we have questions that are in the man pages on the freaking Xymon
menu and even in their own separate page on the Xymon help menu in the
installation itself.

This group exists to help when you've reached a level of proficiency, and
thing that aren't clearly spelled out in the docs are not working as
expected, or there are little "gotchas" that you might need help with that
we've all been through.

True, I'm the first person to grump at someone when they don't receive a
newcomer in a friendly manner, but coming on here and asking questions
that are clearly laid out in the docs is just plain lazy.

You're certainly at least as entitled to your rant as the rantees are to
ask questions that show that they're either lazy or stupid.  And I think
you've done it in the right way, expressing the general issue without
pointing a finger at specific posts, something I don't always have the
good grace to avoid.  Now back to our regularly scheduled programming....

-- 
Josh Luthman
Office: XXX-XXX-XXXX
Direct: XXX-XXX-XXXX
XXXX Wayne St
Suite XXXX
Troy, OH XXXXX

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
continue that counts.”
--- Winston Churchill

On Mar 23, 2010, at 9:53 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

Well what he is saying is that if someone clicks "help" then "this"
they would get the information without bothering anyone filling the
inbox or interrupting the IRC conversation.

On 3/23/10, Smith, Jim <user-dc30f243a817@xymon.invalid> wrote:

Jerald,

I don't make many comments on this board anymore, but I want to chime-in
on this.

I agree with what you say about people needing to read the
documentation.  However, I don't agree with your tone.  Even the acronym
"RTFM" is an insult, in my opinion.

We were all "newbies" at some point and probably asked some dumb
questions ourselves.

Jim Smith
SVHS
Little Rock


-----Original Message-----
From: Jerald Sheets [mailto:user-96a6f34c5806@xymon.invalid]
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 8:17 PM
To: user-ae9b8668bcde@xymon.invalid
Subject: [hobbit] Sorry... I had to vent

Does anyone at all RTFM any more?

We have wikis, docs, a several-year mailing list archive, three
wonderful software and addon repositories.

Still, we have questions that are in the man pages on the freaking Xymon
menu and even in their own separate page on the Xymon help menu in the
installation itself.

This group exists to help when you've reached a level of proficiency,
and thing that aren't clearly spelled out in the docs are not working as
expected, or there are little "gotchas" that you might need help with
that we've all been through.

True, I'm the first person to grump at someone when they don't receive a
newcomer in a friendly manner, but coming on here and asking questions
that are clearly laid out in the docs is just plain lazy.

I wouldn't even let my teenagers get away with that.


Guys, if you have questions there is no one more ready than I to help
you trudge through a problem.  But when you don't so much as get into
the docs and ferret out the basic functionality of the software, you
really make it hard to even want to help you.

On your Xymon install:  just mouse over the "Help" menu, and all your
basic answers will be there.  If you get into a hairy spot, bring it
here and we can ll puzzle over it together.


(sorry... I had three separate people ask precisely the kind of question
that showed they didn't want to do the basic footwork necessary to make
their app work, and expected suppor to just do it all for them.  They
wouldn't even read the manual it took me weeks to put together and post
on the company intranet.)

I actually heard the words today "I don't want to read that book" (22
pages, mind you) "I just want you to make it work."

It's a statistical package...  you actually have to know basic
statistics.  They don't.

UGH!

Sorry again.  A real RTFM moment for me.


--j


The information contained in this message is privileged
and confidential information intended for the review and
use of the individual and entity named above. If the
reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you
are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication or the
information contained herein is strictly prohibited. If
you have received this communication in error, please
immediately notify us.

-- 
Josh Luthman
Office: XXX-XXX-XXXX
Direct: XXX-XXX-XXXX
XXXX Wayne St
Suite XXXX
Troy, OH XXXXX

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
continue that counts.”
--- Winston Churchill

--j


On Mar 23, 2010, at 10:10 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

Are you from Richmond Indiana?

On 3/23/10, Xymon User in Richmond <user-24d6f8323faa@xymon.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, March 23, 2010 21:16, Jerald Sheets wrote:

Does anyone at all RTFM any more?

We have wikis, docs, a several-year mailing list archive, three wonderful
software and addon repositories.

Still, we have questions that are in the man pages on the freaking Xymon
menu and even in their own separate page on the Xymon help menu in the
installation itself.

This group exists to help when you've reached a level of proficiency, and
thing that aren't clearly spelled out in the docs are not working as
expected, or there are little "gotchas" that you might need help with that
we've all been through.

True, I'm the first person to grump at someone when they don't receive a
newcomer in a friendly manner, but coming on here and asking questions
that are clearly laid out in the docs is just plain lazy.

You're certainly at least as entitled to your rant as the rantees are to
ask questions that show that they're either lazy or stupid.  And I think
you've done it in the right way, expressing the general issue without
pointing a finger at specific posts, something I don't always have the
good grace to avoid.  Now back to our regularly scheduled programming....

-- 
Josh Luthman
Office: XXX-XXX-XXXX
Direct: XXX-XXX-XXXX
XXXX Wayne St
Suite XXXX
Troy, OH XXXXX

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
continue that counts.”
--- Winston Churchill

On 2010/03/24 10:16, Jerald Sheets wrote:

Does anyone at all RTFM any more?

We have wikis, docs, a several-year mailing list archive, three wonderful software and addon repositories.

Still, we have questions that are in the man pages on the freaking Xymon menu and even in their own separate page on the Xymon help menu in the installation itself.

This group exists to help when you've reached a level of proficiency, and thing that aren't clearly spelled out in the docs are not working as expected, or there are little "gotchas" that you might need help with that we've all been through.

True, I'm the first person to grump at someone when they don't receive a newcomer in a friendly manner, but coming on here and asking questions that are clearly laid out in the docs is just plain lazy.

I wouldn't even let my teenagers get away with that.


Guys, if you have questions there is no one more ready than I to help you trudge through a problem.  But when you don't so much as get into the docs and ferret out the basic functionality of the software, you really make it hard to even want to help you.

On your Xymon install:  just mouse over the "Help" menu, and all your basic answers will be there.  If you get into a hairy spot, bring it here and we can ll puzzle over it together.


(sorry... I had three separate people ask precisely the kind of question that showed they didn't want to do the basic footwork necessary to make their app work, and expected suppor to just do it all for them.  They wouldn't even read the manual it took me weeks to put together and post on the company intranet.)

I actually heard the words today "I don't want to read that book" (22 pages, mind you) "I just want you to make it work."

It's a statistical package...  you actually have to know basic statistics.  They don't.

UGH!

Sorry again.  A real RTFM moment for me.


--j

On 3/23/10, Maik Heinelt <user-4ab5eb34adb2@xymon.invalid> wrote:

Well, you all also shouldn't forget, that there are a lot of people, who
are not that firm in English.
Even me!!
I also asked some maybe stupid questions to the mailing-list, but
sometimes, it is just easier to understand, if someone
explain details to a foreigner as reading the manual. Not everyone
understand english really good, even if he is a programmer or
administrator. I see that every day in my office!

At last, everyone is/was a newbie and such mailing-lists, or forums,
where you just get a stupid or arrogant  answer, doesn't
make really sense. If a guy is professional, he/she shouldn't look down
to a newbie or other guys who haven't the same experiences. Everyone can
learn from other people and even this pro guy will be a stupid asking
beginner in other topics.

Maik

????? ???
????????2-2-22
???? ???????
TEL 0586-71-3903
FAX 0586-71-4071
<http://www.vegasystems.com>;

On 2010/03/24 10:16, Jerald Sheets wrote:

Does anyone at all RTFM any more?

We have wikis, docs, a several-year mailing list archive, three wonderful
software and addon repositories.

Still, we have questions that are in the man pages on the freaking Xymon
menu and even in their own separate page on the Xymon help menu in the
installation itself.

This group exists to help when you've reached a level of proficiency, and
thing that aren't clearly spelled out in the docs are not working as
expected, or there are little "gotchas" that you might need help with that
we've all been through.

True, I'm the first person to grump at someone when they don't receive a
newcomer in a friendly manner, but coming on here and asking questions
that are clearly laid out in the docs is just plain lazy.

I wouldn't even let my teenagers get away with that.


Guys, if you have questions there is no one more ready than I to help you
trudge through a problem.  But when you don't so much as get into the docs
and ferret out the basic functionality of the software, you really make it
hard to even want to help you.

On your Xymon install:  just mouse over the "Help" menu, and all your
basic answers will be there.  If you get into a hairy spot, bring it here
and we can ll puzzle over it together.


(sorry... I had three separate people ask precisely the kind of question
that showed they didn't want to do the basic footwork necessary to make
their app work, and expected suppor to just do it all for them.  They
wouldn't even read the manual it took me weeks to put together and post on
the company intranet.)

I actually heard the words today "I don't want to read that book" (22
pages, mind you) "I just want you to make it work."

It's a statistical package...  you actually have to know basic statistics.
 They don't.

UGH!

Sorry again.  A real RTFM moment for me.


--j

-- 
Josh Luthman
Office: XXX-XXX-XXXX
Direct: XXX-XXX-XXXX
XXXX Wayne St
Suite XXXX
Troy, OH XXXXX

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
continue that counts.”
--- Winston Churchill

Vernon Everett wrote:

Hi all

Without pointing any fingers, I would like offer some advice.
Let's be nice.

Yes, I agree, some questions can be annoying, and have been asked and
answered over and over, but we need to remember we were all ignorant once.
Yes, There are multiple repositories of knowledge, but that is also part
of the problem. Where to look.
I recall a few years back, I was looking for an SMF file for Hobbit on
Solaris 10. I searched, and couldn't find one, so I wrote my own and
proudly posted it to the list, only to be told one already existed, and
was available in the only place I didn't look. (It's still there
http://xymonton.trantor.org/doku.php/addons:hobbitsmf - Thanks for that
one Galen.)

I always think of list members in terms of profieciency, and measure it
by the questions and sometimes the answers I see. Then I imagine the
proficiency on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is a total noob, 10 would
probably be Henrik.
If you think of yourself as, for the purpose of this demonstration, a
level 8 hobbit user, then you would be stuck on most questions coming
from most level 9 or 10 users, but quite capable of solving problems
from a level 1 to 7. However, the level 1 to 5 questions appear trivial
to you, and annoy you.
Ignore them. A level 3 question is obviously a challenge to a level 3
person, but a delight for a level 4 or 5 to answer, and thus contribute
constructively to the list.
By the same token, even level 1 questions have their value.
Not only do they allow moderate level users to actively participate in
the list, and in so doing, reinforce their own knowledge, more
importantly, it makes the level 1 noob feel that this is a friendly
group of nice people willing to help them get started.
There is nothing worse than trying to get involved in something that
looks good, interesting and fun, only to be told to fsck-off! Some of us
may have experienced that in life, some not - I can assure you though,
it's not a good feeling.

In the past, when the question has been trivial, and covered in the man
pages or similar documents, I have not given the answer, but pointed
them to the respective page or mail archive entry. The "teach a man to
fish" approach. (Search for my name and "endian" for an example of this
in the mail archive)

If a question frustrates you, hit the delete key. Somebody else will
respond.
If a user frustrates you, set up a filter. That's why we have them.
But lets be nice, even to those who might not deserve it. Besides the
reasons listed above, it's just good karma.

Let me end by saying, that we should terminate this thread very quickly,
before we have a flame war.

On Wednesday, 24 March 2010 07:22:08 Vernon Everett wrote:

Yes, I agree, some questions can be annoying, and have been asked and
answered over and over, but we need to remember we were all ignorant once.
Yes, There are multiple repositories of knowledge, but that is also part of
the problem. Where to look.
I recall a few years back, I was looking for an SMF file for Hobbit on
Solaris 10. I searched, and couldn't find one, so I wrote my own and
 proudly posted it to the list, only to be told one already existed, and
 was available in the only place I didn't look. (It's still there
http://xymonton.trantor.org/doku.php/addons:hobbitsmf - Thanks for that one
Galen.)

On Mar 24, 2010, at 2:36 AM, Ryan Novosielski wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


An excellent response. Having been one of the last people to ask a
question before this thread appeared, I couldn't help but look over my
question and wonder a bit if it was directed at me (I've decided it
wasn't as I read the documentation and, technically, it's incorrect).

--j


On Mar 24, 2010, at 2:22 AM, Vernon Everett wrote:

Hi all

Without pointing any fingers, I would like offer some advice.
Let's be nice.

Yes, I agree, some questions can be annoying, and have been asked and answered over and over, but we need to remember we were all ignorant once.
Yes, There are multiple repositories of knowledge, but that is also part of the problem. Where to look.
I recall a few years back, I was looking for an SMF file for Hobbit on Solaris 10. I searched, and couldn't find one, so I wrote my own and proudly posted it to the list, only to be told one already existed, and was available in the only place I didn't look. (It's still there http://xymonton.trantor.org/doku.php/addons:hobbitsmf - Thanks for that one Galen.)

I always think of list members in terms of profieciency, and measure it by the questions and sometimes the answers I see. Then I imagine the proficiency on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is a total noob, 10 would probably be Henrik.
If you think of yourself as, for the purpose of this demonstration, a level 8 hobbit user, then you would be stuck on most questions coming from most level 9 or 10 users, but quite capable of solving problems from a level 1 to 7. However, the level 1 to 5 questions appear trivial to you, and annoy you.
Ignore them. A level 3 question is obviously a challenge to a level 3 person, but a delight for a level 4 or 5 to answer, and thus contribute constructively to the list.
By the same token, even level 1 questions have their value.
Not only do they allow moderate level users to actively participate in the list, and in so doing, reinforce their own knowledge, more importantly, it makes the level 1 noob feel that this is a friendly group of nice people willing to help them get started.
There is nothing worse than trying to get involved in something that looks good, interesting and fun, only to be told to fsck-off! Some of us may have experienced that in life, some not - I can assure you though, it's not a good feeling.

In the past, when the question has been trivial, and covered in the man pages or similar documents, I have not given the answer, but pointed them to the respective page or mail archive entry. The "teach a man to fish" approach. (Search for my name and "endian" for an example of this in the mail archive)

If a question frustrates you, hit the delete key. Somebody else will respond.
If a user frustrates you, set up a filter. That's why we have them.
But lets be nice, even to those who might not deserve it. Besides the reasons listed above, it's just good karma.

Let me end by saying, that we should terminate this thread very quickly, before we have a flame war.

Regards
     V

--j


On Mar 24, 2010, at 4:37 AM, user-d54077869176@xymon.invalid wrote:

Hi all,

I agree with Jerald, but I'd like to moderate his speechs. On my side, I
sometime asked dummy questions, because I didn't know where to find the
answers.
Mailing list archive, Xymon UI help, man pages, FAQ & Tips on xymon
homepage... Many sources of informations.

And as Maik said, we all are not english natural speechers. On my side, I
don't have to much difficulties to understand, but it's not always true.
So, I think 2 things can be done :
-Having a central information source, and several language in it.


In order to centralize informations I think a wiki should be a good
approach. We could paste all informations from UI help, manpages, and FAQ &
Tips, then actualise them.


I don't have much free time, but I can spend some hours to translate all
informations in french. I could be usefull to have german, and some asian
language (japanese, chinese...). As I don't know any word of theses
languages, I can't do it myself.

Regards,
Damien

On Mar 24, 2010, at 4:09 AM, Buchan Milne wrote:

 However, my more concrete reply to the "is Hobbit maintained" 
thread doesn't seem to make it to the list, even after 4 tries over a few 
weeks ...

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Jerald Sheets <user-96a6f34c5806@xymon.invalid> wrote:

I think Damien makes a good point.  It appears, from his message, that he
doesn't even know about the wiki.

Yes, there's a wiki.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/System_Monitoring_with_Hobbit

It's been my answer a number of times to very simple questions.  It
contains many of the things you need to get a basic install up and running
and even contains some tutorials at writing your own checks in the NCV/RRD
piece.

And Damien, even though you're not an "English natural speecher", your
questions always show that you have at least made an effort to look around
first.  Now you have a wiki to add to your list of things!

Damien is a regular, contributing member of this mailing list, and  I think
gets precisely what I'm talking about.  He goes out, looks, reads, and
offers the knowledge he has already found then asks his question in light of
what he's already learned on his own.  That is *NOT* what I'm talking about.


I think this has been a good discussion all around.  I went back and looked
at the histories of several regular members here, and everyone is quite a
good citizen.  We seem to have some pop in from time to time and ask a
question that clearly betrays they didn't so much as look at anything and
just want to be spoon fed the answers every step of the way.  That's what I
was talking about last night.

In ANY event, let's keep this puppy rolling.  I don't think there's
anything out there better than Xymon.  Let's all keep working to make it
even better every single day.


--j


On Mar 24, 2010, at 4:37 AM, user-d54077869176@xymon.invalid wrote:

Hi all,

I agree with Jerald, but I'd like to moderate his speechs. On my side, I
sometime asked dummy questions, because I didn't know where to find the
answers.
Mailing list archive, Xymon UI help, man pages, FAQ & Tips on xymon
homepage... Many sources of informations.

And as Maik said, we all are not english natural speechers. On my side, I
don't have to much difficulties to understand, but it's not always true.
So, I think 2 things can be done :
-Having a central information source, and several language in it.


In order to centralize informations I think a wiki should be a good
approach. We could paste all informations from UI help, manpages, and FAQ

&

Tips, then actualise them.


I don't have much free time, but I can spend some hours to translate all
informations in french. I could be usefull to have german, and some asian
language (japanese, chinese...). As I don't know any word of theses
languages, I can't do it myself.

Regards,
Damien

<user-b3f8dacb72c8@xymon.invalid> wrote:

About 2 years ago, somebody might recall the exact date, I do not, I grabbed
a single month's worth of mailing list, and examined every posting.
From them, I extracted and distilled each question and useful answer into a
Q&A document. Something along the lines of a FAQ.
I posted it on the list, and invited others to grab a month and do likewise.
I was overwhelmed with apathy. :-(
On a positive note, TJ added my Q&As to the Wiki. (Thanks TJ)
See here
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/System_Monitoring_with_Xymon/Other_Docs/FAQ
I think I was responsible for some of these. TJ - can you remember?

My most (in)famous one being the one about "when is the next version due"
That certainly set the cat amongst the pigeons. :-)

You don't need to be a Jedi Master level to distil posts into basic Q&As.
Anybody can do it. Even me.
Grab a month, announce it, and let rip.
I will make it easy.
Add your name to a month below and repost (to prevent duplicate effort), and
just do it.

02/2010 -
01/2010 -
12/2009 -
11/2009 -
10/2009 -
09/2009 -
08/2009 -
07/2009 -
06/2009 -
05/2009 -
04/2009 -
03/2009 -
02/2009 -
01/2009 -
And there are more. Don't be shy. :-)

Cheers
     V


On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Jerald Sheets <user-96a6f34c5806@xymon.invalid> wrote:

I think Damien makes a good point.  It appears, from his message, that he
doesn't even know about the wiki.

Yes, there's a wiki.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/System_Monitoring_with_Hobbit

It's been my answer a number of times to very simple questions.  It
contains many of the things you need to get a basic install up and running
and even contains some tutorials at writing your own checks in the NCV/RRD
piece.

And Damien, even though you're not an "English natural speecher", your
questions always show that you have at least made an effort to look around
first.  Now you have a wiki to add to your list of things!

Damien is a regular, contributing member of this mailing list, and  I
think gets precisely what I'm talking about.  He goes out, looks, reads, and
offers the knowledge he has already found then asks his question in light of
what he's already learned on his own.  That is *NOT* what I'm talking about.


I think this has been a good discussion all around.  I went back and
looked at the histories of several regular members here, and everyone is
quite a good citizen.  We seem to have some pop in from time to time and ask
a question that clearly betrays they didn't so much as look at anything and
just want to be spoon fed the answers every step of the way.  That's what I
was talking about last night.

In ANY event, let's keep this puppy rolling.  I don't think there's
anything out there better than Xymon.  Let's all keep working to make it
even better every single day.


--j


On Mar 24, 2010, at 4:37 AM, user-d54077869176@xymon.invalid wrote:

Hi all,

I agree with Jerald, but I'd like to moderate his speechs. On my side, I
sometime asked dummy questions, because I didn't know where to find the
answers.
Mailing list archive, Xymon UI help, man pages, FAQ & Tips on xymon
homepage... Many sources of informations.

And as Maik said, we all are not english natural speechers. On my side,
I
don't have to much difficulties to understand, but it's not always true.
So, I think 2 things can be done :
-Having a central information source, and several language in it.


In order to centralize informations I think a wiki should be a good
approach. We could paste all informations from UI help, manpages, and
FAQ &
Tips, then actualise them.


I don't have much free time, but I can spend some hours to translate all
informations in french. I could be usefull to have german, and some
asian
language (japanese, chinese...). As I don't know any word of theses
languages, I can't do it myself.

Regards,
Damien

-- 

Josh Luthman
Office: XXX-XXX-XXXX
Direct: XXX-XXX-XXXX
XXXX Wayne St
Suite XXXX
Troy, OH XXXXX

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
continue that counts.”
--- Winston Churchill

<user-24d6f8323faa@xymon.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, March 23, 2010 22:10, Josh Luthman wrote:

Are you from Richmond Indiana?

No, the real one.  Virginia.

 
-----Original Message-----
From: user-d54077869176@xymon.invalid [mailto:user-d54077869176@xymon.invalid] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:38 AM
To: user-ae9b8668bcde@xymon.invalid
Subject: Re: [hobbit] Sorry... I had to vent

Hi all,

I agree with Jerald, but I'd like to moderate his speechs. On my side, I
sometime asked dummy questions, because I didn't know where to find the
answers.
Mailing list archive, Xymon UI help, man pages, FAQ & Tips on xymon
homepage... Many sources of informations.

And as Maik said, we all are not english natural speechers. On my side,
I don't have to much difficulties to understand, but it's not always
true.
So, I think 2 things can be done :
-Having a central information source, and several language in it.


In order to centralize informations I think a wiki should be a good
approach. We could paste all informations from UI help, manpages, and
FAQ & Tips, then actualise them.


I don't have much free time, but I can spend some hours to translate all
informations in french. I could be usefull to have german, and some
asian language (japanese, chinese...). As I don't know any word of
theses languages, I can't do it myself.

Regards,
Damien

On 3/23/2010 10:20 PM, Jerald Sheets wrote:

I think it's more than that, guys, (and I totally reject both your premise and your conclusions, Jim)

To be a viable, contributing member of any online "society", you also should offer something to the conversation.

Since those who are "newbies" haven't any "intellectual collateral" to add to the conversation, they take part in the conversation by understanding the syntax, vis a vis, knowing the very basics as outlined in the documentation.

If you come to the conversation wanting to do no footwork, not reading the documentation and asking to be spoon-fed all the answers, that is leaching.


Let me use an example.

If this were, say, a motorcycle enthusiast group.  Now say, that everyone starts talking about leathers and the need for various materials as protective panels in leathers and the science behind all that.  Now, let's say a new guy comes in and this particular motorcycle group has a wonderful glossary of terms, instructions on riding, mailing list history, and links to several of the technologies discussed on the group and asks on the list..  "What are leathers?".

Is the impetus on the group to say leathers are....   or, is it better citizenry to say "you know, we have a ton of information you should probably read before trying to take part in this conversation...  maybe you should go do that."

In the motorcycle world, that might take the form of "piss off, newbie".  It's just facts.

In our world, it's RTFM (and I use it for it's technological significance in our world.  if you don't want to ready the fine manual, then don't.  If you want to ascribe profanity to the term, then YOU have ascribed the profanity.  This writer does not, keep those terms to yourself)

The POINT is that there are MANY avenues of documentation that we have for this group.  Much too often these days on this list the questions are turning into "show me precisely how to do something that is clearly outlined in our documentation".  We need to roll back for a minute as a community and determine whether that is where we want to take the group.  If so, then perhaps this is not the place for me.

For instance, I had a problem with RRD not graphing properly.  I went through our docs, and searched the mailing list.  When I couldn't find the answers I was looking for, I went to the rrdtool website and looked for more information on the nature of how rrdtool makes graphs.  I wanted to make sure i understood the entire workflow of how this stuff works both in and out of the Hobbit/Xymon framework to be sure that were I to come here and ask a question:

a) I did my homework, and the answer was not obviously staring me in the face in all the usual places
b) I had not overlooked a conversation clearly listing the answer in the list archive
c) I had not fatfingered something in RRD-land, and it would never work given the documentation available on RRDtool.

Then and only then would I consider posting a question and I would also outline all the things I'd read and done thus far looking for the answer, and then would pose my question.  If the answer would be more documentation, I would gladly receive that and continue to try and educate myself.

Not once would I ever come to just have my question answered without doing any footwork of my own first.

"Just give me the answer" is never good citizenship, and should not be encouraged.  From my very earliest dealings here on the list, I've tried to do so and I believe if you run a search, my contributions (even as a stone-cold newbie) speak for themselves.

We should each endeavor to reject the urge for laziness and do everything we can to all help each other as much as possible, but it should never be ok to spoon-feed anyone.  That's my opinion.

Ok, I've said my piece.  I'll crawl back in my home directory...

--j

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Tim Boyer <user-390665de94b9@xymon.invalid> wrote:

One of the mailing lists I'm on - forget which one - actually has a
boilerplate that says 'Read this:

On Wed, March 24, 2010 12:17, Tim Boyer wrote:

One of the mailing lists I'm on - forget which one - actually has a
boilerplate that says 'Read this:
http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html before posting'.

Good advice, IMHO...

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 06:20, Vernon Everett <user-b3f8dacb72c8@xymon.invalid> wrote:

About 2 years ago, somebody might recall the exact date, I do not, I grabbed
a single month's worth of mailing list, and examined every posting.
From them, I extracted and distilled each question and useful answer into a
Q&A document. Something along the lines of a FAQ.

[snip]

You don't need to be a Jedi Master level to distil posts into basic Q&As.
Anybody can do it. Even me.