OK to drop IE6 support in 4.3.0 ?
list Henrik Størner
I'm having some issues that I'd like a wider input on. So although there are probably far too many opinions, I am asking this in a wider audience than just the Xymon developer group. The current menu-system in Xymon is not quite "Open Source" enough for some - the licensing has always been a bit unclear (see the README file in the ~xymon/server/www/menu/ if you doubt that). Therefore it would be nice to replace it with something else, and the Debian people have provided a replacement based on CSS and plain HTML 4. This did break a couple of other things, but I think we have that sorted out by now. The only remaining issue is: It doesn't work in Internet Explorer 6. IE 7, IE 8, Firefox, Konqueror all look fine. Since IE 7 is ok and this is available for Windows XP, I am mostly inclined to ignore the problems with IE6. It will be possible to install the old menu system on top of the new Xymon release, but it would be an extra download and some manual work to do. But possible, if you must live with IE 6. So - would it be OK to do this, and require IE7 as a minimum? Regards, Henrik
list Jef Jagers
More and more companies, like google and youtube to name a few, are not supporting IE6 anymore, so it would be logic to follow. There are also a lot of other reasons why somebody shouldn't use IE6 anymore: http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/191356/its_time_to_finally_drop_internet_explorer_6.html So I totally agree in setting the minimal requirement to IE7 Regards, Jef Jagers Systems Engineer Thomson CompuMark Thomson Reuters T +32 3 220 76 02
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-----Original Message-----
From: Henrik Størner [mailto:user-ce4a2c883f75@xymon.invalid]
Sent: vrijdag, oktober 22, 2010 08:55
To: xymon at xymon.com
Subject: [xymon] OK to drop IE6 support in 4.3.0 ?
I'm having some issues that I'd like a wider input on. So although
there are probably far too many opinions, I am asking this in a
wider audience than just the Xymon developer group.
The current menu-system in Xymon is not quite "Open Source" enough
for some - the licensing has always been a bit unclear (see the README
file in the ~xymon/server/www/menu/ if you doubt that). Therefore
it would be nice to replace it with something else, and the Debian
people have provided a replacement based on CSS and plain HTML 4.
This did break a couple of other things, but I think we have that
sorted out by now.
The only remaining issue is: It doesn't work in Internet Explorer 6.
IE 7, IE 8, Firefox, Konqueror all look fine.
Since IE 7 is ok and this is available for Windows XP, I am mostly
inclined to ignore the problems with IE6. It will be possible to
install the old menu system on top of the new Xymon release, but
it would be an extra download and some manual work to do. But
possible, if you must live with IE 6.
So - would it be OK to do this, and require IE7 as a minimum?
Regards,
Henrik
list Vernon Everett
Hi Henrik From what I can see, the current IE6 user base is down to 5.6%, and dropping. http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_explorer.asp Time for that 5.6% to wake up to reality. I have no hard evidence for this, but I believe that most of the people on this list are smart technical people, who understand the valid criticism and risks of IE6, and are probably already doing their best to avoid it. That being said, there are still a bunch of companies (my current employer included) who still demand IE6 on the desktop because they have some stone-age application that just don't work without the bugs in IE6. Fortunately, there is Firefox or Portable Apps for when I end up at a client with locked-down desktops. I recommend it to those of you stuck with IE6. http://portableapps.com/ And of course, as mentioned by others, if Google can dump it, why not Xymon. http://www.pcworld.com/article/188238/google_yanks_ie6_support.html Just my $0.02 Cheers Vernon
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On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Henrik Størner <user-ce4a2c883f75@xymon.invalid> wrote:
I'm having some issues that I'd like a wider input on. So although there are probably far too many opinions, I am asking this in a wider audience than just the Xymon developer group. The current menu-system in Xymon is not quite "Open Source" enough for some - the licensing has always been a bit unclear (see the README file in the ~xymon/server/www/menu/ if you doubt that). Therefore it would be nice to replace it with something else, and the Debian people have provided a replacement based on CSS and plain HTML 4. This did break a couple of other things, but I think we have that sorted out by now. The only remaining issue is: It doesn't work in Internet Explorer 6. IE 7, IE 8, Firefox, Konqueror all look fine. Since IE 7 is ok and this is available for Windows XP, I am mostly inclined to ignore the problems with IE6. It will be possible to install the old menu system on top of the new Xymon release, but it would be an extra download and some manual work to do. But possible, if you must live with IE 6. So - would it be OK to do this, and require IE7 as a minimum? Regards, Henrik
list Neil Franken
Hi Henrik Support for IE6 should be dropped. It is like supporting Netscape Navigator 4.... Not needed. Since Xymon is more or less not used by average desktop users I think we can safely say that the majority of the user base will actually welcome the fact that we don't support old ancient buggy software anymore. You have my vote for removing the support. Regards Neil
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From: Vernon Everett [mailto:user-b3f8dacb72c8@xymon.invalid] Sent: 22 October 2010 11:27 AM To: xymon at xymon.com Subject: Re: [xymon] OK to drop IE6 support in 4.3.0 ? Hi Henrik From what I can see, the current IE6 user base is down to 5.6%, and dropping. http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_explorer.asp Time for that 5.6% to wake up to reality. I have no hard evidence for this, but I believe that most of the people on this list are smart technical people, who understand the valid criticism and risks of IE6, and are probably already doing their best to avoid it. That being said, there are still a bunch of companies (my current employer included) who still demand IE6 on the desktop because they have some stone-age application that just don't work without the bugs in IE6. Fortunately, there is Firefox or Portable Apps for when I end up at a client with locked-down desktops. I recommend it to those of you stuck with IE6. http://portableapps.com/ And of course, as mentioned by others, if Google can dump it, why not Xymon. http://www.pcworld.com/article/188238/google_yanks_ie6_support.html Just my $0.02 Cheers Vernon On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Henrik Størner <user-ce4a2c883f75@xymon.invalid> wrote: I'm having some issues that I'd like a wider input on. So although there are probably far too many opinions, I am asking this in a wider audience than just the Xymon developer group. The current menu-system in Xymon is not quite "Open Source" enough for some - the licensing has always been a bit unclear (see the README file in the ~xymon/server/www/menu/ if you doubt that). Therefore it would be nice to replace it with something else, and the Debian people have provided a replacement based on CSS and plain HTML 4. This did break a couple of other things, but I think we have that sorted out by now. The only remaining issue is: It doesn't work in Internet Explorer 6. IE 7, IE 8, Firefox, Konqueror all look fine. Since IE 7 is ok and this is available for Windows XP, I am mostly inclined to ignore the problems with IE6. It will be possible to install the old menu system on top of the new Xymon release, but it would be an extra download and some manual work to do. But possible, if you must live with IE 6. So - would it be OK to do this, and require IE7 as a minimum? Regards, Henrik
list Sebastian Auriol
Top posting as I can't easily do otherwise on HTML e-mails. According to http://www.netmarketshare.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=3, the percentage of users using IE6 is actually still over 15%, and more than IE7 (at just over 10%). However, I agree that most people here are probably doing their best to avoid IE6, and even if they have to use it for some things, have another browser they can use for Xymon. I think it is OK to drop IE6 support on 4.3.0, particularly if there is an add-on package available to restore the old menu for anyone still using IE6. SebA
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From: Vernon Everett [mailto:user-b3f8dacb72c8@xymon.invalid] Sent: 22 October 2010 10:27 To: xymon at xymon.com Subject: Re: [xymon] OK to drop IE6 support in 4.3.0 ? Hi Henrik From what I can see, the current IE6 user base is down to 5.6%, and dropping. http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_explorer.asp Time for that 5.6% to wake up to reality. I have no hard evidence for this, but I believe that most of the people on this list are smart technical people, who understand the valid criticism and risks of IE6, and are probably already doing their best to avoid it. That being said, there are still a bunch of companies (my current employer included) who still demand IE6 on the desktop because they have some stone-age application that just don't work without the bugs in IE6. Fortunately, there is Firefox or Portable Apps for when I end up at a client with locked-down desktops. I recommend it to those of you stuck with IE6. http://portableapps.com/ And of course, as mentioned by others, if Google can dump it, why not Xymon. http://www.pcworld.com/article/188238/google_yanks_ie6_support.html Just my $0.02 Cheers Vernon On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Henrik Størner <user-ce4a2c883f75@xymon.invalid> wrote: I'm having some issues that I'd like a wider input on. So although there are probably far too many opinions, I am asking this in a wider audience than just the Xymon developer group. The current menu-system in Xymon is not quite "Open Source" enough for some - the licensing has always been a bit unclear (see the README file in the ~xymon/server/www/menu/ if you doubt that). Therefore it would be nice to replace it with something else, and the Debian people have provided a replacement based on CSS and plain HTML 4. This did break a couple of other things, but I think we have that sorted out by now. The only remaining issue is: It doesn't work in Internet Explorer 6. IE 7, IE 8, Firefox, Konqueror all look fine. Since IE 7 is ok and this is available for Windows XP, I am mostly inclined to ignore the problems with IE6. It will be possible to install the old menu system on top of the new Xymon release, but it would be an extra download and some manual work to do. But possible, if you must live with IE 6. So - would it be OK to do this, and require IE7 as a minimum? Regards, Henrik
18:34:00
list Jerald Sheets
Don't forget Safari. It's 100% ACID compliant, so I don't see an issue, but I'd be happy to test. SysAdmins are starting to pick up Macbook Pros in droves. The last UNIX meeting I spoke for, more than half were on MacBooks and a little less than half of those were still running Mac OS X. I've also noticed an increasing number of developers on Macs as well. It's the only platform you can buy that you can run all commercial and OpenSource OSes (Linux, Windows, and Mac) on all at once. (i.e., one purchase, multiple platforms) I'm happy to offer the testing for that, should we decide to go that route. Oh, and "yeah". Kill IE6. --Jerald
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On Oct 22, 2010, at 2:55 AM, Henrik Størner wrote:
I'm having some issues that I'd like a wider input on. So although there are probably far too many opinions, I am asking this in a wider audience than just the Xymon developer group. The current menu-system in Xymon is not quite "Open Source" enough for some - the licensing has always been a bit unclear (see the README file in the ~xymon/server/www/menu/ if you doubt that). Therefore it would be nice to replace it with something else, and the Debian people have provided a replacement based on CSS and plain HTML 4. This did break a couple of other things, but I think we have that sorted out by now. The only remaining issue is: It doesn't work in Internet Explorer 6. IE 7, IE 8, Firefox, Konqueror all look fine. Since IE 7 is ok and this is available for Windows XP, I am mostly inclined to ignore the problems with IE6. It will be possible to install the old menu system on top of the new Xymon release, but it would be an extra download and some manual work to do. But possible, if you must live with IE 6. So - would it be OK to do this, and require IE7 as a minimum? Regards, Henrik
list Marco Avvisano
Kill IE6. Marco
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Il 22/10/2010 8.55, Henrik Størner ha scritto:I'm having some issues that I'd like a wider input on. So although there are probably far too many opinions, I am asking this in a wider audience than just the Xymon developer group. The current menu-system in Xymon is not quite "Open Source" enough for some - the licensing has always been a bit unclear (see the README file in the ~xymon/server/www/menu/ if you doubt that). Therefore it would be nice to replace it with something else, and the Debian people have provided a replacement based on CSS and plain HTML 4. This did break a couple of other things, but I think we have that sorted out by now. The only remaining issue is: It doesn't work in Internet Explorer 6. IE 7, IE 8, Firefox, Konqueror all look fine. Since IE 7 is ok and this is available for Windows XP, I am mostly inclined to ignore the problems with IE6. It will be possible to install the old menu system on top of the new Xymon release, but it would be an extra download and some manual work to do. But possible, if you must live with IE 6. So - would it be OK to do this, and require IE7 as a minimum? Regards, Henrik
list Henrik Størner
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On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:42:36 -0400, Jerald Sheets wrote:
Don't forget Safari. It's 100% ACID compliant, so I don't see an issue, but I'd be happy to test.
Unfortunately, I don't have Apple hardware available - so testing Safari will have to be done by someone else. I'll have the new menu-code up and running on www.xymon.com later today, so if you could point your browser there and check it out, I would appreciate it. One of the things that have been problematic is the graph-zoom functionality, so I would specifically like you to test that. Go to one of the "trends" pages, and click on the magnifying glass to zoom one of the graphs. Can you select a region of the graph and zoom ? Regards, Henrik
list Xymon User in Richmond
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On Fri, October 22, 2010 02:55, Henrik Størner wrote:
So - would it be OK to do this, and require IE7 as a minimum?
Absolutely. IE6 (and 5) were notorious for diddling html and not telling you about it, so you could never be sure that what you were seeing were the exact Hobbit/Xymon pages, anyway.
list Jerald Sheets
Of course I will. Just let us know when it's up. I'll be happy to regress at the user/functionality level. If I run into issues, I'll try and gather as much forensics as possible. --j
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On Oct 22, 2010, at 9:10 AM, Henrik Størner wrote:
I'll have the new menu-code up and running on www.xymon.com later today, so if you could point your browser there and check it out, I would appreciate it. One of the things that have been problematic is the graph-zoom functionality, so I would specifically like you to test that. Go to one of the "trends" pages, and click on the magnifying glass to zoom one of the graphs. Can you select a region of the graph and zoom ?
list Rob Munsch
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On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:42:36 -0400, Jerald Sheets wrote:Don't forget Safari. It's 100% ACID compliant, so I don't see an issue, but I'd be happy to test.Unfortunately, I don't have Apple hardware available - so testing Safari will have to be done by someone else.
I have Windows' Safari on here, and can test that version at least. I assume the zoom issue in Firefox is what you're referring to? The big blue rectangle was a surprise.
list Josh Luthman
That is 6% of the world. The people using Xymon are less then 6% I'm sure. XP is the oldest OS anyone should be using which means you can use IE 8 or 9. I say don't break 6 but don't do much of anything to make it work. On Oct 22, 2010 5:29 AM, "Vernon Everett" <user-b3f8dacb72c8@xymon.invalid> wrote:
list Larry Sherman
I hate to admit it, but where I work, IE 6 is still the standard. Many vendor apps rely on it, as well as some of our internal ones. I must image that at larger, more bureaucratic institutions, the same may be true.... However, it is a very small subset of users that view Xymon, and those are capable of remembering to launch a different/newer/standards based browser...... Larry Sherman RBS Global Banking & Markets Office: +X XXX XXX XXXX | Mobile: +X XXX XXX XXXX
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From: Josh Luthman [mailto:user-4c45a83f15cb@xymon.invalid]
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 9:32 AM
To: xymon at xymon.com
Subject: Re: [xymon] OK to drop IE6 support in 4.3.0 ?
That is 6% of the world. The people using Xymon are less then 6% I'm sure. XP is the oldest OS anyone should be using which means you can use IE 8 or 9.
I say don't break 6 but don't do much of anything to make it work.
On Oct 22, 2010 5:29 AM, "Vernon Everett" <user-b3f8dacb72c8@xymon.invalid<mailto:user-b3f8dacb72c8@xymon.invalid>> wrote:
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list Henrik Størner
Hi Jerald, please give it a spin, and let me know if you find anything odd. Regards, Henrik
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In <user-073ff2699fcf@xymon.invalid> Jerald Sheets <user-96a6f34c5806@xymon.invalid> writes:
Of course I will. Just let us know when it's up. I'll be happy to =
regress at the user/functionality level. =20▸
If I run into issues, I'll try and gather as much forensics as possible.
--j
On Oct 22, 2010, at 9:10 AM, Henrik St=F8rner wrote:
I'll have the new menu-code up and running on www.xymon.com later = today, so if you could point your browser there and check it out, I would appreciate it.
=20 One of the things that have been problematic is the graph-zoom=20
▸
functionality, so I would specifically like you to test that. Go to one of the "trends" pages, and click on the magnifying glass to zoom one of the graphs. Can you select a region of the graph and zoom ?
list Tim McCloskey
Sorry to say I've not followed this thread, thus the following may be of no use. Regardless, with no changes to hobbit I started having issues with zoom in certain browsers, they would just turn the area into a blue rectangle. Somewhere in the list there was a note to add the following bits to menu.css, which solved the issue for me.
...
#zoomSensitiveZone{
opacity:0;
}
#zoomBox{
opacity:0.5;
}
...
Regards,
Tim
▸
From: Henrik Størner [user-ce4a2c883f75@xymon.invalid]
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 9:31 AM
To: xymon at xymon.com
Subject: Re: [xymon] OK to drop IE6 support in 4.3.0 ?
Hi Jerald,
please give it a spin, and let me know if you find anything odd.
Regards,
Henrik
In <user-073ff2699fcf@xymon.invalid> Jerald Sheets <user-96a6f34c5806@xymon.invalid> writes:
Of course I will. Just let us know when it's up. I'll be happy to = regress at the user/functionality level. =20
If I run into issues, I'll try and gather as much forensics as possible.
--j
On Oct 22, 2010, at 9:10 AM, Henrik St=F8rner wrote:
I'll have the new menu-code up and running on www.xymon.com later = today, so if you could point your browser there and check it out, I would appreciate it. =20 One of the things that have been problematic is the graph-zoom=20 functionality, so I would specifically like you to test that. Go to one of the "trends" pages, and click on the magnifying glass to zoom one of the graphs. Can you select a region of the graph and zoom ?
list Rob Munsch
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-----Original Message----- From: Tim McCloskey [mailto:user-440820cc07d6@xymon.invalid] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 12:40 PM To: xymon at xymon.com Subject: RE: [xymon] OK to drop IE6 support in 4.3.0 ? Sorry to say I've not followed this thread, thus the following may be of no use. Regardless, with no changes to hobbit I started having issues with zoom in certain browsers, they would just turn the area into a blue rectangle. Somewhere in the list there was a note to add the following bits to menu.css, which solved the issue for me.
While I saw this in Firefox 3.6.8 and 3.6.10 on my own Xymon, I do not see it on www.xymon.com using 3.6.10. Your site also seems to be working fine on Windows Safari 4.0.5. Menus are all working as expected as well on all versions. I will meanwhile try the posted solution on my own installation.
...
#zoomSensitiveZone{
opacity:0;
}
#zoomBox{
opacity:0.5;
}
...list Jerald Sheets
All the menus work as expected. The zoom feature for individual graphs works. I was able to generate custom report time frames. I was also able to get the spreadsheet report as well. It appears that all the menuing is fine. Is there anything else you want me to look for?
▸
--j
On Oct 22, 2010, at 12:31 PM, Henrik Størner wrote:
Hi Jerald, please give it a spin, and let me know if you find anything odd. Regards, Henrik
list Sebastian Auriol
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Rob Munsch <mailto:user-d560979fab41@xymon.invalid> wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Tim McCloskey [mailto:user-440820cc07d6@xymon.invalid] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 12:40 PM To: xymon at xymon.com Subject: RE: [xymon] OK to drop IE6 support in 4.3.0 ? Sorry to say I've not followed this thread, thus the following may be of no use. Regardless, with no changes to hobbit I started having issues with zoom in certain browsers, they would just turn the area into a blue rectangle. Somewhere in the list there was a note to add the following bits to menu.css, which solved the issue for me.While I saw this in Firefox 3.6.8 and 3.6.10 on my own Xymon, I do not see it on www.xymon.com using 3.6.10. Your site also seems to be working fine on Windows Safari 4.0.5. Menus are all working as expected as well on all versions. I will meanwhile try the posted solution on my own installation.... #zoomSensitiveZone{ opacity:0; } #zoomBox{ opacity:0.5; } ...
I have the blue rectangle issue on my copy of Xymon, but it works fine on www.xymon.com so it looks like the change to HTML 4 Strict (or some other recent change) may have fixed this. SebA 06:34:00
list Jerald Sheets
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... #zoomSensitiveZone{ opacity:0; } #zoomBox{ opacity:0.5; } ...I have the blue rectangle issue on my copy of Xymon, but it works fine on www.xymon.com so it looks like the change to HTML 4 Strict (or some other recent change) may have fixed this.
If you make the above changes, the blue rectangle issue goes away.
--j
list Rob Munsch
-----Original Message----- From: Jerald Sheets [mailto:user-96a6f34c5806@xymon.invalid]
▸
... #zoomSensitiveZone{ opacity:0; } #zoomBox{ opacity:0.5; } ...I have the blue rectangle issue on my copy of Xymon, but it works fine
If you make the above changes, the blue rectangle issue goes away.
Dumb (and probably .css) question: why does the above example start with # when the css statements in the file need to start with a dot (which did in fact fix it)?
list Jerald Sheets
LOL... I didn't say I understood it. I just said it fixed it. :-D
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--j
On Oct 22, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Rob Munsch wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Jerald Sheets [mailto:user-96a6f34c5806@xymon.invalid]... #zoomSensitiveZone{ opacity:0; } #zoomBox{ opacity:0.5; } ...I have the blue rectangle issue on my copy of Xymon, but it works fineIf you make the above changes, the blue rectangle issue goes away.Dumb (and probably .css) question: why does the above example start with # when the css statements in the file need to start with a dot (which did in fact fix it)?
list Rob Munsch
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-----Original Message----- From: Jerald Sheets [mailto:user-96a6f34c5806@xymon.invalid] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 3:02 PM To: xymon at xymon.com Subject: Re: [xymon] OK to drop IE6 support in 4.3.0 ? LOL... I didn't say I understood it. I just said it fixed it. :-D
Fair enough, and also I may get that tattooed on my forehead.
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On Oct 22, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Rob Munsch wrote:-----Original Message----- From: Jerald Sheets [mailto:user-96a6f34c5806@xymon.invalid]... #zoomSensitiveZone{ opacity:0; } #zoomBox{ opacity:0.5; } ...I have the blue rectangle issue on my copy of Xymon, but it works fineIf you make the above changes, the blue rectangle issue goes away.Dumb (and probably .css) question: why does the above example start with # when the css statements in the file need to start with a dot (which did in fact fix it)?
list Henrik Størner
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In <user-5e463a134c14@xymon.invalid> Jerald Sheets <user-96a6f34c5806@xymon.invalid> writes:
All the menus work as expected. The zoom feature for individual graphs works. I was able to generate custom report time frames. I was also able to get the spreadsheet report as well.
It appears that all the menuing is fine. Is there anything else you = want me to look for?
Thanks, just what I wanted to hear :-) Since the new system works with IE 7+, Firefox, Konqueror and Safari, I think it's A-OK for putting it into production. Regards, Henrik
list Ralph Mitchell
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On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 4:06 PM, Henrik Størner <user-ce4a2c883f75@xymon.invalid> wrote:
In <user-5e463a134c14@xymon.invalid> Jerald Sheets < user-96a6f34c5806@xymon.invalid> writes:All the menus work as expected. The zoom feature for individual graphs works. I was able to generate custom report time frames. I was also able to get the spreadsheet report as well.It appears that all the menuing is fine. Is there anything else you = want me to look for?Thanks, just what I wanted to hear :-) Since the new system works with IE 7+, Firefox, Konqueror and Safari, I think it's A-OK for putting it into production.
Graph zoom and menus seem to work OK in Google Chrome too - well, Chromium
in Gentoo Linux, actually.
Ralph Mitchell